tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post5459506233949010759..comments2024-03-27T06:42:26.250-07:00Comments on Seven Miles of Steel Thistles: More on heroines and heroism in fictionKatherine Langrishhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12529700103932422873noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-43174557498528008042013-09-28T11:09:50.538-07:002013-09-28T11:09:50.538-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17598020864219325129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-78338589528609164892013-04-18T11:58:45.805-07:002013-04-18T11:58:45.805-07:00I do agree about us having attributes of both gend...I do agree about us having attributes of both genders within us. I used to like fighting with my brother and running around with a gun, but I didn't want to be a boy, just to be equal with them. I just had lunch, today, with a Greenham woman, and we talked about the Peace Movement, and non-violent direct action, which I did a bit of. Dodging the Met to mark the outside of MOD on Ash Wednesday, going out at midnight to demonstrate against a Cruise missile convoy that had been tracked by activists, all the way to Salisbury Plain and back - throwing a pumpkin in a sack down in the road in front of the convoy so it had to stop to investigate it, then darting out to throw paint over it - this was Lynette, who I had lunch with - these are activities, fuelled by the deep conviction that we did not want the world to be blown up and made uninhabitable - which weren't about fighting, quite the opposite, but were about campaigning. Women going over the Greenham fence on ladders to dance on top of the missile silos - I could take up far too much space here, but Greenham surely was a way for women to be active and heroic without trying at all to be men. Whereas our then Prime Minister, though a woman, seemed determined to be an honorary man.<br /> Leslie Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15105465949970430998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-89546107016418377902013-04-10T01:24:21.173-07:002013-04-10T01:24:21.173-07:00Thankyou, Erika - and how lovely to meet someone e...Thankyou, Erika - and how lovely to meet someone else who knows and reads Violet Needham - I have a few and look out for them whenever I'm in a second hand bookshop. Katherine Langrishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12529700103932422873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-11136477443318274722013-04-09T09:12:17.556-07:002013-04-09T09:12:17.556-07:00In my reading childhood years I enjoyed the girls ...In my reading childhood years I enjoyed the girls in some of Violet needham's books, especially "the Woods of Windri" and "Pandora of Parham Royal". years later my daughter enjoyed them equally but thought that some of the boy characters were immensely feeble!<br /><br />I have just discovered your blog--it is wonderful.<br /><br />Erika W.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-49532478989361817002013-04-06T16:16:39.132-07:002013-04-06T16:16:39.132-07:00Cat, I loved the fact that Petrova was interested ...Cat, I loved the fact that Petrova was interested in mechanics, in a novel written in the 1930s, and nobody told her she mustn't be.<br /><br />Good points you make, Austin! Sometimes a book you loved as a child doesn't stand up later. And sometimes it gives you a pleasant surprise, such as The Wizard Of Oz, which I reread as an adult and realised just how many good, strong interesting women it featured, starting with Dorothy herself. The Witches, good and evil alike, rule Oz(and Glinda has female soldiers serving her), while the Wizard is a carnival and con man from Omaha who needs other people to get his things for him.Sue Bursztynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09362273418897882971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-28506182858939219622013-04-06T03:24:09.409-07:002013-04-06T03:24:09.409-07:00I wonder what those fantastic, beautiful, daring, ...I wonder what those fantastic, beautiful, daring, sensitive, fully -rounded human characters Dido Twite or Lyra Belacqua would have to contribute to this very interesting discussion?<br /><br />These are fictional heroines who transcend, ignore and outlive all of our prejudicial notions about what attributes and activities are deemed 'masculine' and 'feminine.'<br /><br />Until we cast off the chains of gender dualism and embrace the idea that all human attributes and expressions are equally available to all human beings, we will struggle in the chains of this false dichotomy.<br /><br />As writers, those of us who are, we do perhaps have a responsibility to populate the fictional landscape with more Didos and Lyras. That is to say, more heroines who are first and foremost multi-dimensional, fully developed characters engaged in their meaningful story-lives and for whom their sex is secondary. (I'm aware that Lyra's sex was essential to the plot of His Dark Materials, but it doesn't define her as a person).<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br />On reading certain novels that were important to me in the 70s to my own children, I was enlightened, delighted and saddened in equal measure by my daughter's despair at the 'Janes and Susans' as she calls them who always played secondary roles to 'Simons and Peters.'<br /><br />She has never complained about Dido or Lyra. There's a reason for that.Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08789849765972235409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-87786770928599922822013-04-05T20:58:18.215-07:002013-04-05T20:58:18.215-07:00Yes, I think we do tend to undervalue other forms ...Yes, I think we do tend to undervalue other forms of courage - and perhaps not even recognise actions as being courageous - like Petrova in Streatfeild's Ballet Shoes going on stage when she clearly loathes it.catdownunderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06959328192182156574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-17242176178175736192013-04-05T16:33:21.628-07:002013-04-05T16:33:21.628-07:00What an utterly brilliant post. I loved it! I ador...What an utterly brilliant post. I loved it! I adored the character of George when I was a girl, and my sister and I used to fight over who got to play her in our Famous Five games. I was the younger sibling and so my sister used to say that meant I had to be Anne - which I very much did not want to do. I also love Geoffrey Trease - I collect his books. I never minded the cross-dressing - Georgette Heyer has done it a few times too, and I always loved the subversiveness of it. I've also really enjoyed everyone's comments - such an interesting conversation. I have written heroines who dress like boys and fight with swords and gallop about on horses, and I have also written heroines who love to cook, or sew, or who are frightened of horses. I agree there can be as many different fictional portrayals of women as there are individuals. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02455915239098174762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-50990341514994636022013-04-05T16:23:28.182-07:002013-04-05T16:23:28.182-07:00Oh I loved Monstrous Regiment, Sue - thankyou for ...Oh I loved Monstrous Regiment, Sue - thankyou for reminding me -it's delightful! <br /><br /><br /><br />Katherine Langrishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12529700103932422873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-88282453751371611312013-04-05T16:04:52.273-07:002013-04-05T16:04:52.273-07:00Dr "James" Barry, anyone? ;-) By the way...Dr "James" Barry, anyone? ;-) By the way, speaking of girls following sweethearts into war, anyone read Terry Pratchett's delightful The Monstrous Regiment? It sent up the whole idea, when a girl disguises as a boy to find her brother in a war and discovers her entire group of soldiers is women disguised as men! It isn't giving away much; anyone who knows the full quote will get the joke.Sue Bursztynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09362273418897882971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-66946054616872209482013-04-05T13:21:50.362-07:002013-04-05T13:21:50.362-07:00Yes! Yes! I love these two heroines you've fou...Yes! Yes! I love these two heroines you've found. I love Victorian plant-hunters climbing Tibetan mountains in skirts and petticoats. And I actually often don't really love kick-ass heroines. I'm uneasy with them because they can so easily end up just another male fantasy trope like Lara Croft - another way of devaluing female experience. (I know it's not always so, and it depends on how you define kick-ass of course.)<br /><br />Taking the topic in a slightly different direction - as far as I know, many of the women who famously dressed as men in history did so as much from a sense of self-preservation as to be able to escape traditional female roles and have adventures... Lilyhttp://www.lilyhyde.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-24619175094504523592013-04-05T11:53:22.892-07:002013-04-05T11:53:22.892-07:00No, of course, because you're not cross dressi...No, of course, because you're not cross dressing - and neither am I, wearing jeans and a sweater as I type. It's been ordinary wear for women for I don't know how many decades now. But when I was small, there was still a mildly rebellious frisson in eschewing the dresses and skirts your mother rather hoped you would wear. And for the heroines of historical novels, such as Trease's, it's anachronistic to routinely, as he does, put them in breeches. I enjoyed his books very much - but I might have enjoyed them even more, and felt better about myself as a girl, if some of his heroines had kept their skirts. There is no evidence whatsoever that his own examples, Olympia Morata and Marietta Strozzi, ever wore boys' clothes. Trease would have been truer to history and to female experience if he had followed their examples more closely and allowed his young readers, boys as well as girls, to recognise that girls AS girls could and did lead exciting lives. With regard to modern children's literature, of course things have changed. Cross dressing in modern fiction does not exist (girl to boy), but while I have no problem with the existence of kick-ass heroines like Katniss of 'The Hunger Games' or Tris of Virginia Roth's 'Divergent', I'm slightly concerned that the alternative to kick-ass martial-arts heroines appears to be the love-lorn Twilight brood.<br /> <br />In my opinion, Olympia Morata beats them all, hands down. Katherine Langrishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12529700103932422873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-22241302826770742572013-04-05T10:23:55.998-07:002013-04-05T10:23:55.998-07:00As a child, and even more today, I never considere...As a child, and even more today, I never considered pants to *be* boys' clothes. <br /><br />Pants were comfortable clothes. Pants were what you wore for fun, or for an adventure. Dresses were for school and church and other formal occasions (which were unlikely to involve fun.) <br /><br />When I wear a pair of jeans and a sweater, I don't feel as if I'm cross-dressing...Ellen Klagesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-65925669697634583122013-04-05T06:07:31.724-07:002013-04-05T06:07:31.724-07:00Tried to comment before to say how wonderful I tho...Tried to comment before to say how wonderful I thought this was. Very nostalgic too! Hope this time I'm let on to the siteadelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15826710558292792068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-76584049992171310152013-04-05T04:32:11.885-07:002013-04-05T04:32:11.885-07:00Those were rhetorical questions, by the way, which...Those were rhetorical questions, by the way, which you have already ably answered! ;) Katherine Langrishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12529700103932422873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-39525051795568698312013-04-05T04:27:43.739-07:002013-04-05T04:27:43.739-07:00Jillondon, we are in complete agreement! You say &...Jillondon, we are in complete agreement! You say "I don’t think that Olympia Morata was passive; I think it’s quite clear that she was anything but." That is precisely my point: as I wrote with intentional irony: "I doubt if Olympia Morata felt very passive while she was escaping barefoot". So why have women like Morata been, absurdly, PERCEIVED as passive - as acted upon rather than actors? Is it because of the old epic obsession with 'heroes with swords'? Why are there still lots of people who honestly believe it's not possible to write an exciting story about a girl or woman in the past without dressing her up in doublet and hose and equipping her with a weapon? - as if women per se couldn't have interesting/exciting/dangerous experiences. I appreciate your long comment immensely, and wouldn't like you to think I don't agree with every word of it. Katherine Langrishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12529700103932422873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-50012897377999426862013-04-05T03:33:31.870-07:002013-04-05T03:33:31.870-07:00Okay, I’m probably about to do something very fool...Okay, I’m probably about to do something very foolish here, but I am going to stick my head out above the parapet and say that I stand by my statement in the previous post regarding what is and isn’t considered a strong feminine character. <br />I think we have seen quite clearly that what we’re talking about here is no longer a question of writing but a question of what we fundamentally believe a woman to be. For me, it pains and saddens me beyond words that women should not only happily relinquish but actively reject aspects of their essential nature because they believe that these attributes are masculine. We are human beings, faulty, passionate and dangerous at heart, we are capable of so much good and evil. That includes us women too. Fighting is not a preserve of masculinity as a visit to any local schoolyard will reveal. I don’t think that Olympia Morata was passive; I think it’s quite clear that she was anything but. Her life was exciting and dangerous and she didn’t turn away from her path and met those experiences head on with no qualms over social stigmas.<br />As you say authors have in the past have suggested that to be strong is to be male but this is just the natural expression of archaic values in play. These attributes were held to be masculine and so these authors had no concept of how to express such characters in any other way, as you say “the adults writing for them were unable to imagine the possibility that one could have adventures in a skirt”. Consider it like this: If you put a barrister’s wig on your head people will presume that you are a barrister until lots of people keep doing the same thing and the wig loses its association. These attributes whether we like it or not are feminine also - to suggest otherwise is faulty thinking and comes across as highly sanctimonious. <br />I’m glad that you mention real life examples of female heroism, Katherine, because these are exactly the women I had in mind. Women who didn’t adhere to what they were told they could or should do but who went ahead and followed their passion. I’m not saying that we should abandon quick wits for brute force – perish the thought. I am saying don’t dress it up as something it isn’t and I’m also saying that women should stop rejecting their inherent nature just because society has skewed the meaning of that nature. <br />Unfortunately, at present, arguments over what it is to be a woman are so varied and polarised that we have reached a point of total stagnation, but that appears to be inevitable as we stand at different viewpoints and fail to budge. I hope that one day we will be able to reach beyond this point but I’m afraid it’s not going to happen by insisting that differences of opinion are forgotten – somehow we are all going to have to find a way forward that includes all aspects of femininity, and opinions from both sides of the fence, so that no-one feels misrepresented.<br />Well, I’m sorry I have used up so much of your comment space, Katherine, and I really appreciate that you have opened up this discussion as it's a vital one, but if my words cause anyone to pause and think rather than react, or encourages one woman to feel free to state her case, then I think we will both be happy that I stuck my neck out?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-55470345469151672832013-04-05T03:30:45.939-07:002013-04-05T03:30:45.939-07:00The horse stories - yes, good point, Sue! And Cath...The horse stories - yes, good point, Sue! And Cath, ha! We'd have been in trouble together, then. Sue, while it's true that some women in history have dressed as men - like the pirate Mary Bonny - I can't help thinking that Shakespeare is to blame for the many be-doubleted heroines in historical fiction. While that sort of thing is all great fun, the danger is that what women and girls were really experiencing may be ignored or written off as dull - when the reverse is often true. A good counter example is Ann Turnbull's YA novel 'Alice In Love and War' - the fortunes of a girl who follows her no-good-soldier-lad lover, and is as heroic as anyone could wish - but in a skirt!Katherine Langrishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12529700103932422873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-24149218081115996352013-04-05T02:57:39.508-07:002013-04-05T02:57:39.508-07:00I loved Geoffrey Trease's heroines. They were ...I loved Geoffrey Trease's heroines. They were all strong and interesting. And if they had to cross dress, it WAS, after all, historical fiction. George was my heroine too. But then, I never much liked Julian anyway. He was too bossy.<br /><br />I wonder if all those girls' stories with horses were exactly this desire for action and adventure?Sue Bursztynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09362273418897882971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-30264793957048754512013-04-05T02:01:31.707-07:002013-04-05T02:01:31.707-07:00My 1950s/60s childhood came rushing back to me whi...My 1950s/60s childhood came rushing back to me while reading this post. I did all these things except it wasn't on Ilkley Moor, it was on the beaches and countryside around Penzance in Cornwall. And I've never before heard any other woman mention fighting the boys and getting told off as a child. I won't say I thought I was unique in having done that but of course it wasn't ladylike to do such a thing back then, I got into a lot of trouble, and it's something I've rarely admitted to. I also devoured The Famous Five, and loved the four children who were in Blyton's ' Of Adventure' series, Sea, Castle, Island etc. Her book The Valley of Adventure probably fueled every one of my childhood fantasies. LOL. Thank you for such a brilliant post.Cathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06371069000185280668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4950999049789394042.post-20506849338558542602013-04-05T01:42:36.369-07:002013-04-05T01:42:36.369-07:00Great post - and I love your caption for Anne!Great post - and I love your caption for Anne!Catherine Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17693526864905868829noreply@blogger.com